[NEW] The Zerg Queen put in perspective | starcraft 2 zerg units – Vietnamnhanvan

starcraft 2 zerg units: นี่คือโพสต์ที่เกี่ยวข้องกับหัวข้อนี้

Drahkn

Profile

Joined June 2021

40 Posts

Last Edited: 2021-11-02 02:39:04

#1

I was writing a response to a discussion about the Queen and while I was writing I really came to understand the insanity that is the Queen and the stubbornness of Blizzard. This is what led me to write this post.

Although there are many flaws in SC2’s design none compare to that of the Zerg Queen. If you think for a minute about all the jobs the queen does for the Zerg you start to understand the insanity. All this just because Blizzard wants to keep Hydralisk on Lair Tech?

Let’s start with what it was designed to do.

Inject larvae, spread creep, heal Zerg units or buildings.(support unit)

As strategy develops in sc2 it seems clear Zerg needs good anti air earlier because of how quick Terran and Protoss make their Starport/Stargate units.

They need the range to deal with Liberator harass and warp prisms, they need good damage to deal with mass phoenix, void rays and banshees.

Queens are also quite capable at fighting ground units because of how durable they are on top of that they can heal each other, they are also good at blocking pathways because of how big they are making it harder for units like hellions to run past them.

They are also psionic so no light or armored damage multipliers work against them.

Because of this combination of healing ability, high hit points and psionic armor zergs started to realize they could rely on mostly pure queen for defense for a lot longer staying safe without having to sacrifice drone production.

This also makes zerg super flexible when facing a attack they were not completely ready for, micro combined with the durability of queens gives zerg the time they need to mass produce the combat units needed to stop the attack. And not only that, they can then be used in an attack like an army of moving photon cannons.

This is the reason Zerg players have managed to be a lot more consistent with their results at the very highest level of play over the years compared to their Terran and especially Protoss counterparts.

I hope Blizzard will make a few more drastic changes to sc2 before they close the book

AzAlexZ

Profile

Joined September 2016

2726 Posts

#2

they need to add the armor/light tag back to queens, that alone will solve many of the problems the queen becomes

Faker is the GOAT!

jpg06051992

Profile

Joined July 2015

United States

568 Posts

#3

We already have a pointless balance thread ebbing and flowing, do we really need another one? Starcraft is pretty much life for me but that’s when I realized it’s more like RTS is life, not necessarily Starcraft. If Blizzard wants to let a game like this be pretty much on it’s own regarding balance then lets just focus on high quality maps at this point and give the balance thing a rest.

We all know there could be various improvements both large and small that would be great, but I think deep down we know that no matter how much we cry about it in TL.net or Reddit, they just really and truly don’t care.

And honestly I think even if they actually cared, they wouldn’t have the slightest clue on who to put in charge of the operation, nor is there anyone that the community would agree upon anyways.

Pros? Too biased

Casters? Eh, maybe, I love Wardi and the way he casts but does he necessarily have very high level game knowledge?

The noobs (rank 1 masters and below) we all know can just continue to improve, hell you could probably say that all the way to the tip top of GM if you wanted to.

“SO MANY BANELINGS!”

Riner1212

Profile

Joined November 2012

United States

294 Posts

#4

you guys can complain as much as you want for balance changes its not happening lol.

Sjow “pretty ez life as protoss”

Seacow

Profile

Joined March 2010

42 Posts

#5

I think the durability of queens is a problem, feels like you’re punching one of those rubber boxing dolls. But as has been pointed out in other threads – reworking the queen means reworking zerg in its entirety.

~

Husyelt

Profile

Joined May 2020

United States

414 Posts

#6

WE NEED TO REWORK MULES. WE NEED TO REWORK WARPGATE. WE NEED TO REWORK QUEENS.

Did I capture the first small steps to balance an asymmetrical designed game? Shit, I should be a AAA game designer. I’m fucking ready, just send me a PM or respond here in the comment section below.

IMSupervisor

Profile

Joined June 2016

Australia

124 Posts

#7

IMO the only thing Queens might be guilty of is giving Zerg a bit too much breathing room / information in the mid to late game via creep spread, everything else seems fine. And honestly when you watch someone like Clem playing TvZ it’s hard to make an argument that Zerg needs to be nerfed (and giving Queens a light or armored tag is a nerf), especially in the early to mid game.

jpg06051992

Profile

Joined July 2015

United States

568 Posts

#8

On November 02 2021 14:11 IMSupervisor wrote:
IMO the only thing Queens might be guilty of is giving Zerg a bit too much breathing room / information in the mid to late game via creep spread, everything else seems fine. And honestly when you watch someone like Clem playing TvZ it’s hard to make an argument that Zerg needs to be nerfed (and giving Queens a light or armored tag is a nerf), especially in the early to mid game.

If I’m wrong I apologize but are you referring to the Dreamhack finals between him and Serral? I gotta admit man, it does look kind of bad but Serral is really just so mind boggling quick, the guy is just playing on a whole other level.

If I’m wrong I apologize but are you referring to the Dreamhack finals between him and Serral? I gotta admit man, it does look kind of bad but Serral is really just so mind boggling quick, the guy is just playing on a whole other level.

“SO MANY BANELINGS!”

IMSupervisor

Profile

Joined June 2016

Australia

124 Posts

#9

On November 02 2021 14:24 jpg06051992 wrote:
Show nested quote +

On November 02 2021 14:11 IMSupervisor wrote:
IMO the only thing Queens might be guilty of is giving Zerg a bit too much breathing room / information in the mid to late game via creep spread, everything else seems fine. And honestly when you watch someone like Clem playing TvZ it’s hard to make an argument that Zerg needs to be nerfed (and giving Queens a light or armored tag is a nerf), especially in the early to mid game.

If I’m wrong I apologize but are you referring to the Dreamhack finals between him and Serral? I gotta admit man, it does look kind of bad but Serral is really just so mind boggling quick, the guy is just playing on a whole other level.

If I’m wrong I apologize but are you referring to the Dreamhack finals between him and Serral? I gotta admit man, it does look kind of bad but Serral is really just so mind boggling quick, the guy is just playing on a whole other level.

All good mate, I was just speaking generally and didn’t have any games in mind specifically. I’m not even sure if creep is considered much of an issue anymore at the top level, it was just the only thing I could think of relating to the Queen that could be adjusted which might improve the game. Perhaps it’s just my Terran bias speaking though XD

All good mate, I was just speaking generally and didn’t have any games in mind specifically. I’m not even sure if creep is considered much of an issue anymore at the top level, it was just the only thing I could think of relating to the Queen that could be adjusted which might improve the game. Perhaps it’s just my Terran bias speaking though XD

RogerChillingworth

Profile

Joined March 2010

2434 Posts

Last Edited: 2021-11-02 06:37:42

#10

Before touching units, Blizzard should really look at:

  • reverting starting workers to 6 or so
  • adopting Brood War’s “diminishing returns” economy, instead of the current scaling economy

Wait a few minutes (months) then take a look at what needs to change beyond that. I agree Queens do too much, like police! But without Brood-War-esque 1-supply “mediocre” hydras (which won’t happen), what do you do?

Like there are just so many issues with the game, from the terrible “roach/marauder/immortal” trifecta of “units that don’t shoot up” – an idea sc2 devs had to make it stand on its own from its predecessor – to pathing, dps numbers, speed, splash, individual unit design, zerg not having a 1-food unit in its arsenal (srsly, wtf?), etc.

On top of all that

  • bio is too strong and the most microable units in the game (reminiscent of mutas in Brood War)
  • gateway units suck ass and are purely about mobility over sustainability
  • robo units failed hard when push came to shove, with aesthetic design and narrative intrigue coming in a distant second to gameplay
  • warp-in is ridiculous and, again, another thing that on paper seems cool but actually just warps (heh) the game into something completely bizarre with the company of the warp prism especially
  • splash units that are set-and-forget and can win games in a second (banelings, widow mines, disruptors)

So I dno if the Queen is worth pulling to the side to discuss. There’s just so much fundamental badness that works great for spectators but is ultimately quite shit for the players.

Game’s too fucking fast and way too reliant on build orders and unit comps.

As stated, there are so many things wrong with the core design of SC2 – to focus on the queen specifically seems a little weird.Before touching units, Blizzard should really look at:Wait a few minutes (months) then take a look at what needs to change beyond that. I agree Queens do too much, like police! But without Brood-War-esque 1-supply “mediocre” hydras (which won’t happen), what do you do?Like there are just so many issues with the game, from the terrible “roach/marauder/immortal” trifecta of “units that don’t shoot up” – an idea sc2 devs had to make it stand on its own from its predecessor – to pathing, dps numbers, speed, splash, individual unit design, zerg not having a 1-food unit in its arsenal (srsly, wtf?), etc.On top of all thatSo I dno if the Queen is worth pulling to the side to discuss. There’s just so much fundamental badness that works great for spectators but is ultimately quite shit for the players.Game’s too fucking fast and way too reliant on build orders and unit comps.

https://www.storytimemydudes.com/

stilt

Profile

Joined October 2012

France

2492 Posts

Last Edited: 2021-11-02 11:09:25

#11

Another whine post on TL “yawn” which covers the usual myths…
As said before, the best way to balance zvt nowadays would be maps if only blizzard will be a bit more active on this part.
As for zvp/tvp, I guess a few tweaks here and there would be nice. (Lurkers, void, blink dt…)

ejozl

Profile

Joined October 2010

Denmark

2946 Posts

Last Edited: 2021-11-02 11:41:46

#12

I think it’s pretty reasonable to bring up the Queen, I mean we see players make 16 of these things quite often.
That’s 150*16=2400 minerals. So please respond reasonably as well..

The Psionic tag doesn’t have anything to do with having an armour tag. Viper is armoured+psionic, Hight Templar is light+psionic and the Baneling doesn’t have armoured, light, nor psionic tag.

The change I’ve come up with is tailored towards letting the Queen do it’s role as a defensive fighting unit and nerfing it’s macro ability(creep,) so that using 2400 minerals on Queens actually hampers your macro style quite a bit, while making it so you can defend the shit you need to without having to spend this much into the Queens. Then we should see less Queens, stronger Queens and quite a bit less Creep Spread, unless you REALLY invest into it.
So what I’ve come up with is as follows:
– Queen starting energy from 25->50(the same starting energy as all other energy units/buildings).
– Queen Creep Tumour cost from 25->50.
– Queen Transfuse now is reverted to it’s instant heal version (the heal over time is now instant).

Another change that can also be done is reducing the vision range of Creep Tumours by 1, this can be done without affecting it’s ability to spread Creep Tumours, this is because with this change the vision is the same as the creep radius.

It should be said that this I think is an overall nerf to the Queen and so you probably can’t do this change without changing something up for T and P too. I definitely don’t think Zerg is too powerful atm.

SC2 Archon needs “Terrible, terrible damage” as one of it’s quotes.

alpenrahm

Profile
Blog

Joined December 2010

Germany

610 Posts

Last Edited: 2021-11-02 11:48:51

#13

On November 02 2021 15:28 RogerChillingworth wrote:
As stated, there are so many things wrong with the core design of SC2 – to focus on the queen specifically seems a little weird.

Before touching units, Blizzard should really look at:

  • reverting starting workers to 6 or so
  • adopting Brood War’s “diminishing returns” economy, instead of the current scaling economy
See also  Slush Invaders (Original) | slush

Wait a few minutes (months) then take a look at what needs to change beyond that. I agree Queens do too much, like police! But without Brood-War-esque 1-supply “mediocre” hydras (which won’t happen), what do you do?

Like there are just so many issues with the game, from the terrible “roach/marauder/immortal” trifecta of “units that don’t shoot up” – an idea sc2 devs had to make it stand on its own from its predecessor – to pathing, dps numbers, speed, splash, individual unit design, zerg not having a 1-food unit in its arsenal (srsly, wtf?), etc.

On top of all that

  • bio is too strong and the most microable units in the game (reminiscent of mutas in Brood War)
  • gateway units suck ass and are purely about mobility over sustainability
  • robo units failed hard when push came to shove, with aesthetic design and narrative intrigue coming in a distant second to gameplay
  • warp-in is ridiculous and, again, another thing that on paper seems cool but actually just warps (heh) the game into something completely bizarre with the company of the warp prism especially
  • splash units that are set-and-forget and can win games in a second (banelings, widow mines, disruptors)

So I dno if the Queen is worth pulling to the side to discuss. There’s just so much fundamental badness that works great for spectators but is ultimately quite shit for the players.

Game’s too fucking fast and way too reliant on build orders and unit comps.

As stated, there are so many things wrong with the core design of SC2 – to focus on the queen specifically seems a little weird.Before touching units, Blizzard should really look at:Wait a few minutes (months) then take a look at what needs to change beyond that. I agree Queens do too much, like police! But without Brood-War-esque 1-supply “mediocre” hydras (which won’t happen), what do you do?Like there are just so many issues with the game, from the terrible “roach/marauder/immortal” trifecta of “units that don’t shoot up” – an idea sc2 devs had to make it stand on its own from its predecessor – to pathing, dps numbers, speed, splash, individual unit design, zerg not having a 1-food unit in its arsenal (srsly, wtf?), etc.On top of all thatSo I dno if the Queen is worth pulling to the side to discuss. There’s just so much fundamental badness that works great for spectators but is ultimately quite shit for the players.Game’s too fucking fast and way too reliant on build orders and unit comps.

List:
1. Bio is fine where it is, it’s strong, but it takes ages to get running, with stim being one of the longest upgrades in the game. There are a number of decent counters to it, it offers high octane play and counterplay, it is what makes the game actual fun for terrans and their opponents.
2. gateway units, in particular the Stalker being shit is a direct consequence of warpgate being a thing. Its a design choice there won’t be a change coming. Never.
3. Robo units, actually, still see a lot of play and aren’t nearly as bad as you make them out to be. Being out of the meta because recently stargate is more popular doesn’t necessarily mean that they are in dire need of a buff. Besides, in the lower leagues ( anything below GM) the tosses that actually win games are the ones that field archon immortal (why everyone always complains about gateway units being weak when the archon literally can be warped in anywhere and just flushes all Bio and zerg units down the toilet is a mystery to me. Apparently at this point the whole weak Gateway story has taken on a live of its own)
4. Yes, but would the game actually be more fun if you had to waddle dragoons around? BW reminiscence is a bit of a traditional TL sin, doesn’t mean the change would work well for SC2
5. If you set and forget your Mines you ll be in for a surprise when a handful of lings charge your bio. The fact that you set and forget just means that you aren’t fast enough to micro, bane and mine micro is a thing, just not in gold:D
6. you are right that picking out the queen without changing the early game dynamics between the races is just silly. Queens are just as strong as they need to be right now just so zerg doesn’t outright lose to every silly hellbat all in.

And yes, the game is about speed and execution. Real time is big in sc2, strategy and planning are for in between games and that’s just how it is. If you prefer slower RTS where you can adjust your wholesome strategic approach in the game that’s fine but you ll never be happy with Sc2 because that’s just not what the game wanted to be.

Edit:
on topic, we could give queens negative health regen while off creep so they lose a bit of their offensive potential and be less of a jack of all trades

List:1. Bio is fine where it is, it’s strong, but it takes ages to get running, with stim being one of the longest upgrades in the game. There are a number of decent counters to it, it offers high octane play and counterplay, it is what makes the game actual fun for terrans and their opponents.2. gateway units, in particular the Stalker being shit is a direct consequence of warpgate being a thing. Its a design choice there won’t be a change coming. Never.3. Robo units, actually, still see a lot of play and aren’t nearly as bad as you make them out to be. Being out of the meta because recently stargate is more popular doesn’t necessarily mean that they are in dire need of a buff. Besides, in the lower leagues ( anything below GM) the tosses that actually win games are the ones that field archon immortal (why everyone always complains about gateway units being weak when the archon literally can be warped in anywhere and just flushes all Bio and zerg units down the toilet is a mystery to me. Apparently at this point the whole weak Gateway story has taken on a live of its own)4. Yes, but would the game actually be more fun if you had to waddle dragoons around? BW reminiscence is a bit of a traditional TL sin, doesn’t mean the change would work well for SC25. If you set and forget your Mines you ll be in for a surprise when a handful of lings charge your bio. The fact that you set and forget just means that you aren’t fast enough to micro, bane and mine micro is a thing, just not in gold:D6. you are right that picking out the queen without changing the early game dynamics between the races is just silly. Queens are just as strong as they need to be right now just so zerg doesn’t outright lose to every silly hellbat all in.And yes, the game is about speed and execution. Real time is big in sc2, strategy and planning are for in between games and that’s just how it is. If you prefer slower RTS where you can adjust your wholesome strategic approach in the game that’s fine but you ll never be happy with Sc2 because that’s just not what the game wanted to be.Edit:on topic, we could give queens negative health regen while off creep so they lose a bit of their offensive potential and be less of a jack of all trades

deacon.frost

Profile

Joined February 2013

Czech Republic

11632 Posts

Last Edited: 2021-11-02 13:05:13

#14

On November 02 2021 15:28 RogerChillingworth wrote:

+ Show

Spoiler

+

Before touching units, Blizzard should really look at:

  • reverting starting workers to 6 or so
  • adopting Brood War’s “diminishing returns” economy, instead of the current scaling economy

Wait a few minutes (months) then take a look at what needs to change beyond that. I agree Queens do too much, like police! But without Brood-War-esque 1-supply “mediocre” hydras (which won’t happen), what do you do?

As stated, there are so many things wrong with the core design of SC2 – to focus on the queen specifically seems a little weird.Before touching units, Blizzard should really look at:Wait a few minutes (months) then take a look at what needs to change beyond that. I agree Queens do too much, like police! But without Brood-War-esque 1-supply “mediocre” hydras (which won’t happen), what do you do?

Like there are just so many issues with the game, from the terrible “roach/marauder/immortal” trifecta of “units that don’t shoot up” – an idea sc2 devs had to make it stand on its own from its predecessor – to pathing, dps numbers, speed, splash, individual unit design, zerg not having a 1-food unit in its arsenal (srsly, wtf?), etc.

+ Show

Spoiler

+


On top of all that

  • bio is too strong and the most microable units in the game (reminiscent of mutas in Brood War)
  • gateway units suck ass and are purely about mobility over sustainability
  • robo units failed hard when push came to shove, with aesthetic design and narrative intrigue coming in a distant second to gameplay
  • warp-in is ridiculous and, again, another thing that on paper seems cool but actually just warps (heh) the game into something completely bizarre with the company of the warp prism especially
  • splash units that are set-and-forget and can win games in a second (banelings, widow mines, disruptors)

So I dno if the Queen is worth pulling to the side to discuss. There’s just so much fundamental badness that works great for spectators but is ultimately quite shit for the players.

Game’s too fucking fast and way too reliant on build orders and unit comps

On top of all thatSo I dno if the Queen is worth pulling to the side to discuss. There’s just so much fundamental badness that works great for spectators but is ultimately quite shit for the players.Game’s too fucking fast and way too reliant on build orders and unit comps

Like there are just so many issues with the game, from the terrible “roach/marauder/immortal” trifecta of “units that don’t shoot up” – an idea sc2 devs had to make it stand on its own from its predecessor – to pathing, dps numbers, speed, splash, individual unit design, zerg not having a 1-food unit in its arsenal (srsly, wtf?), etc.

Zergling costs 1 supply (technically half, but game doesn’t do halves)

On November 02 2021 20:46 alpenrahm wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 02 2021 15:28 RogerChillingworth wrote:
As stated, there are so many things wrong with the core design of SC2 – to focus on the queen specifically seems a little weird.

Before touching units, Blizzard should really look at:

  • reverting starting workers to 6 or so
  • adopting Brood War’s “diminishing returns” economy, instead of the current scaling economy

Wait a few minutes (months) then take a look at what needs to change beyond that. I agree Queens do too much, like police! But without Brood-War-esque 1-supply “mediocre” hydras (which won’t happen), what do you do?

Like there are just so many issues with the game, from the terrible “roach/marauder/immortal” trifecta of “units that don’t shoot up” – an idea sc2 devs had to make it stand on its own from its predecessor – to pathing, dps numbers, speed, splash, individual unit design, zerg not having a 1-food unit in its arsenal (srsly, wtf?), etc.

On top of all that

  • bio is too strong and the most microable units in the game (reminiscent of mutas in Brood War)
  • gateway units suck ass and are purely about mobility over sustainability
  • robo units failed hard when push came to shove, with aesthetic design and narrative intrigue coming in a distant second to gameplay
  • warp-in is ridiculous and, again, another thing that on paper seems cool but actually just warps (heh) the game into something completely bizarre with the company of the warp prism especially
  • splash units that are set-and-forget and can win games in a second (banelings, widow mines, disruptors)

So I dno if the Queen is worth pulling to the side to discuss. There’s just so much fundamental badness that works great for spectators but is ultimately quite shit for the players.

Game’s too fucking fast and way too reliant on build orders and unit comps.

As stated, there are so many things wrong with the core design of SC2 – to focus on the queen specifically seems a little weird.Before touching units, Blizzard should really look at:Wait a few minutes (months) then take a look at what needs to change beyond that. I agree Queens do too much, like police! But without Brood-War-esque 1-supply “mediocre” hydras (which won’t happen), what do you do?Like there are just so many issues with the game, from the terrible “roach/marauder/immortal” trifecta of “units that don’t shoot up” – an idea sc2 devs had to make it stand on its own from its predecessor – to pathing, dps numbers, speed, splash, individual unit design, zerg not having a 1-food unit in its arsenal (srsly, wtf?), etc.On top of all thatSo I dno if the Queen is worth pulling to the side to discuss. There’s just so much fundamental badness that works great for spectators but is ultimately quite shit for the players.Game’s too fucking fast and way too reliant on build orders and unit comps.

+ Show

Spoiler

+

List:
1. Bio is fine where it is, it’s strong, but it takes ages to get running, with stim being one of the longest upgrades in the game. There are a number of decent counters to it, it offers high octane play and counterplay, it is what makes the game actual fun for terrans and their opponents.
2. gateway units, in particular the Stalker being shit is a direct consequence of warpgate being a thing. Its a design choice there won’t be a change coming. Never.
3. Robo units, actually, still see a lot of play and aren’t nearly as bad as you make them out to be. Being out of the meta because recently stargate is more popular doesn’t necessarily mean that they are in dire need of a buff. Besides, in the lower leagues ( anything below GM) the tosses that actually win games are the ones that field archon immortal (why everyone always complains about gateway units being weak when the archon literally can be warped in anywhere and just flushes all Bio and zerg units down the toilet is a mystery to me. Apparently at this point the whole weak Gateway story has taken on a live of its own)
4. Yes, but would the game actually be more fun if you had to waddle dragoons around? BW reminiscence is a bit of a traditional TL sin, doesn’t mean the change would work well for SC2
5. If you set and forget your Mines you ll be in for a surprise when a handful of lings charge your bio. The fact that you set and forget just means that you aren’t fast enough to micro, bane and mine micro is a thing, just not in gold:D
6. you are right that picking out the queen without changing the early game dynamics between the races is just silly. Queens are just as strong as they need to be right now just so zerg doesn’t outright lose to every silly hellbat all in.

See also  OPEN AI - SKYNET CỦA DOTA 2? | HISTORY OF OPEN AI | openai dota

And yes, the game is about speed and execution. Real time is big in sc2, strategy and planning are for in between games and that’s just how it is. If you prefer slower RTS where you can adjust your wholesome strategic approach in the game that’s fine but you ll never be happy with Sc2 because that’s just not what the game wanted to be.

Edit:
on topic, we could give queens negative health regen while off creep so they lose a bit of their offensive potential and be less of a jack of all trades

Edit:on topic, we could give queens negative health regen while off creep so they lose a bit of their offensive potential and be less of a jack of all trades

Because at the early game the creep is everywhere and the enemy units are only on the creep. C’mon.

On November 02 2021 11:26 Drahkn wrote:

+ Show

Spoiler

+

I was writing a response to a discussion about the Queen and while I was writing I really came to understand the insanity that is the Queen and the stubbornness of Blizzard. This is what led me to write this post.

Although there are many flaws in SC2’s design none compare to that of the Zerg Queen. If you think for a minute about all the jobs the queen does for the Zerg you start to understand the insanity. All this just because Blizzard wants to keep Hydralisk on Lair Tech?

Let’s start with what it was designed to do.

Inject larvae, spread creep, heal Zerg units or buildings.(support unit)

As strategy develops in sc2 it seems clear Zerg needs good anti air earlier because of how quick Terran and Protoss make their Starport/Stargate units.

They need the range to deal with Liberator harass and warp prisms, they need good damage to deal with mass phoenix, void rays and banshees.

Queens are also quite capable at fighting ground units because of how durable they are on top of that they can heal each other, they are also good at blocking pathways because of how big they are making it harder for units like hellions to run past them.

They are also psionic so no light or armored damage multipliers work against them.

Because of this combination of healing ability, high hit points and psionic armor zergs started to realize they could rely on mostly pure queen for defense for a lot longer staying safe without having to sacrifice drone production.

This also makes zerg super flexible when facing a attack they were not completely ready for, micro combined with the durability of queens gives zerg the time they need to mass produce the combat units needed to stop the attack. And not only that, they can then be used in an attack like an army of moving photon cannons.

This is the reason Zerg players have managed to be a lot more consistent with their results at the very highest level of play over the years compared to their Terran and especially Protoss counterparts.

I hope Blizzard will make a few more drastic changes to sc2 before they close the book

I hope Blizzard will make a few more drastic changes to sc2 before they close the book

What do you people need to understand that Blizzard already closed the book. They finished balance patching the game. They’re done with balance patches.

It’s fun to throw ideas around but they won’t touch the game. Especially since the queen was in the discussions for ages now.

Not. Gonna. Happen.

Move on.

Zergling costs 1 supply (technically half, but game doesn’t do halves)Because at the early game the creep is everywhere and the enemy units are only on the creep. C’mon.What do you people need to understand that Blizzard already closed the book. They finished balance patching the game. They’re done with balance patches.It’s fun to throw ideas around but they won’t touch the game. Especially since the queen was in the discussions for ages now.Not. Gonna. Happen.Move on.

I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.

InfCereal

Profile

Joined December 2011

Canada

1644 Posts

#15

Blizzard didn’t close the book, they closed the whole fucking store.

Do they have _any_ games getting good support, or has it all gone to call of duty?

Cereal :: AllThingsZerg.com :: SC2Overwatch.com

bela.mervado

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Joined December 2008

Hungary

217 Posts

#16

On November 02 2021 22:01 deacon.frost wrote:
Show nested quote +

On November 02 2021 15:28 RogerChillingworth wrote:
.. zerg not having a 1-food unit in its arsenal (srsly, wtf?), etc.

Zergling costs 1 supply (technically half, but game doesn’t do halves)

Show nested quote +

On November 02 2021 20:46 alpenrahm wrote:
on topic, we could give queens negative health regen while off creep so they lose a bit of their offensive potential and be less of a jack of all trades

Because at the early game the creep is everywhere and the enemy units are only on the creep. C’mon.

Zergling costs 1 supply (technically half, but game doesn’t do halves)Because at the early game the creep is everywhere and the enemy units are only on the creep. C’mon.

one zergling does cost 0.5 supply.
you are probably confused because they hatch in pairs. two at a time from one egg for a total cost of 1 supply. the game does count in halves, but displays supply rounded up.

the negative health regen would address the queen walk.
(i was thinking about the same solution, but zergs would probably get overlord speed and poop a creep highway in reaction anyways, maybe for an even stronger push, with faster reinforcements).

one zergling does cost 0.5 supply.you are probably confused because they hatch in pairs. two at a time from one egg for a total cost of 1 supply. the game does count in halves, but displays supply rounded up.the negative health regen would address the queen walk.(i was thinking about the same solution, but zergs would probably get overlord speed and poop a creep highway in reaction anyways, maybe for an even stronger push, with faster reinforcements).

112StaminaX

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Joined June 2020

26 Posts

Last Edited: 2021-11-02 14:53:04

#17

i dont think there are any programmers left that are any good to program in legacy languages at blizzard. ive heard they still make games with drag and drop sdks tho still. dont think we are going to see any more major changes.

oh, and, theres nothing wrong with the queen, you really dont want to go back to the way it was , cos i dont miss playing against the same strat everygame and on every map

Cyro

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Joined June 2011

United Kingdom

19973 Posts

#18

Until you got to the bit about hydralisks on lair tech i thought this was about Kerrigan 😀

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NonY

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Joined June 2007

8450 Posts

#19

I hope Blizzard will make a few more drastic changes to sc2 before they close the book

i’d rather they didnt

what queens have become is awful design-wise but changing them now would be a bad idea. if we were in alpha or beta, sure, cut your losses and commit to a redesign. but the game is actually pretty good right now overall and should coast off of small tweaks. i dont think redesigns are on the table anymore anyway. probably just small tweaks that have the smallest impact possible on the most successful strategies, just to mix things up.

i’d rather they didntwhat queens have become is awful design-wise but changing them now would be a bad idea. if we were in alpha or beta, sure, cut your losses and commit to a redesign. but the game is actually pretty good right now overall and should coast off of small tweaks. i dont think redesigns are on the table anymore anyway. probably just small tweaks that have the smallest impact possible on the most successful strategies, just to mix things up.

“Fucking up is part of it. If you can’t fail, you have to always win. And I don’t think you can always win.” Elliott Smith ———- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. ‘Witness.’

confusedzerg

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Joined July 2021

Russian Federation

83 Posts

Last Edited: 2021-11-02 18:06:58

#20

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[NEW] [Top 5] Starcraft 2 Best Zerg Builds | starcraft 2 zerg units – Vietnamnhanvan

Looking for some great ladder builds? Look no further, Here is the top 5 Zerg builds at the moment. 

SC2, Zerg Victory

Wondering what the meta is for Zerg on the ladders these days? All you overminds of Zerg out there take out your play book and get ready to take some notes. We will look at some hot Zerg builds that the best Zergs in the world use to win big tournaments.    

In this article, we will study Zerg builds that are currently in fashion winning many great Zergs big titles over the years. At the end of it, hopefully we can also use them to get promoted to the next tier in our ladder leagues. 

#5. Bane bust V. Terran 

StarCraft 2: How-to Baneling Bust INTELLIGENTLY! (Guide)

What better way to beat Terrans in the supreme early game than to bane bust their depot wall and flood the main with lings. Sweet simple quick win. As one of the most well known early game Zerg cheese builds, bane bust is a great way to kill Terrans before they get too big. Since this build is one of the quickest hitting cheese in the entire game, Terrans may well be caught completely off guard. Even if they scout and do know that the bane bust is coming, successfully defending against it requires a high level of planning and execution in unit controls. Because splash damage from banes are insane, one small mistake from the defending Terran will end the game right there and then.        

What is Great about This Build: 

  • If you need a quick simple win, this build can do just that for you. Utilizing the earliest units in the game, lings and banes, the Zerg race is very well suited for early timing attacks that can often kill or at least severely cripple the Terran.
  • The scouting from Terran can see this coming, but it’s almost pointless because it hits so fast. Terran may panic and scramble to put some kind of wall to block incoming banes and lings, but with the right number of banes, Terran wall can easily be breached for the lings to wreak havoc in the main of Terran.    
  • Building walls for Terran is not cheap. Destroying parts of the Terran wall like the depots with the bane bust will significantly stunt the economy of Terran. So, even if the bane bust does not kill the Terran completely, it will definitely inflict huge economic damage to Terran. 
See also  \"LOOP WADI HANNIFA,DANTES PEAK,RUINS,WADI SAFFAR,GAX DIRIYAH ROUTE\"... | dante's peak

How it Works:  

  • An overlord followed by filling the initial full 10 worker supply 
  • Hatchery as soon as 300 mineral 
  • Spawning pool and gas 
  • Queens in each hatchery 
  • Ling speed as soon as 100 gas
  • Produce couple of lings 
  • Bane nest 
  • Once speed is finished, produce as many lings as possible and morph maximal number of banes 
  • Bust down the depot part of the Terran wall and flood the main with lings focusing on killing the workers  

#4. Nydus all in V. Protoss/Terran 

StarCraft 2: NYDUS WORM ALL-IN! (Zerg Build Order Guide)

Nydus is one of the scariest tools Zergs have at their disposal to allow extremely dynamic army movement around the map. Since Protoss and Terran rely heavily on building a good sim city/walls at the front line to deter any Zerg attacks, sneaky nydus at the back of the main can spell disaster. Popping up a nydus worm does require fairly high tech (lair), but nydus timing can be as quick as early-mid game consisting of ling floods and queens. With good overlord positioning around the base of your opponent, nydus is a great way to make the defense chaotic for your opponent.     

What is Great about This Build: 

  • Summoning nydus is not that expensive considering the potential damage it can inflict-simply hit one location with a good number of army supply and retreat into the safety of the nydus after maximal damage   
  • Multiple nydus worms in different locations around the opponent base can be very difficult to keep track of and defend properly (a great guerilla tactics to disorient and mess up the play rhythm of your opponent) 
  • There will always be some part of the map that your opponent does not have good vision on, this is a great place to pop up a nydus and surprise them with sudden flood of army  

How it Works:

  • Drone up fully without gas initially 
  • Hatchery in the natural and then the first gas 
  • Spawning pool and then the third  hatchery 
  • Queens on each hatchery 
  • Ling speed as soon as enough gas 
  • Good number of lings for early defense and map control 
  • Lair as soon as enough gas 
  • Build Nydus and pop the worm in the good location around enemy base
  • Flood the different parts of the base with lings and queens (other units work great with nydus as well such as roaches and hydras)

#3. Hydra/lurker V.Protoss   

GUIDE – 2021 ZERG VS PROTOSS – HYDRA LURKER STYLE – GRANDMASTER – StarCraft 2

Hydras and lurkers are the strongest ranged units for Zerg on the ground that deal an insane amount of DPS. Utilizing this superior range and DPS, Zerg can use this combo to dominate the later game. Since hydras and lurkers are both high quality later game units, Zerg will need to survive by defending any early attacks from the opposing race during early to mid game. Good set of early game units like lings, queens, and roaches can protect the early Zerg economy until the mighty hydra/lurker army is ready.    

What is Great about This Build: 

  • Build up a great early/mid economy while preparing for the zerg death ball backed by limitless well of resources 
  • Both ranged and high damage output, hydra/lurker is a great combo to dominate both ground and air fight-add to this good creep spread that will make them move faster and 4 more extra upgrades will truly make this composition a Zerg death ball   
  • The hydra/lurker death ball is fairly easy to create and maintain since all you have to do is produce mass hydras once you have big enough bank and morph some of them into lurkers

How it Works:

  • Full 16 drone  followed by the natural hatchery 
  • Gas and then spawning pool 
  • Queens for each hatchery and whenever there is enough money for extra creep spread and injects 
  • The third  hatchery 
  • Roach warren for the early defense against gateway units 
  • Lair and continued macro (drone up and overlords)
  • Evo chambers 
  • Roach speed and ranged attack upgrade 
  • Hydra den and armor upgrade 
  • Hydra speed and range upgrade while producing hydras 
  • Lurker den and infestation pit for lurker upgrades 
  • Continued production of hydras and lurkers 
  • Hive and continue upgrades           

#2. Muta/ling/bane V. Terran 

StarCraft 2: MUTA LING BANE IS BACK!

This long time ZvT gold standard build has been utilized by many great Zergs over the years to win them big tournaments. If there is one solid standard ZvT build any Zerg wants to learn, this is it. Utilizing 2 of the fastest moving units in the game, muta/ling/bane is a great unit composition for harassing Terran to slow them down and whittle them down until the Zerg is just simply too big to fail. Well upgraded speed lings and  a flock of mutas terrorizing the mineral line is the toughest Zerg play style to deal with as a Terran. The combination of simultaneous fast hitting ground and air harass from Zerg can very easily dismantle the Terran economy and slowly reduce them to a puny little army that stands no chance against the swarm.       

What is Great about This Build: 

  • Huge harass potential- the units have high DPS and splash damage and extremely fast moving/versatile; they are capable of quick attacks and defense all around the map
  • When controlled correctly, building and maintaining the muta/ling/bane army is one of the cheapest yet deadly in the game
  • The army composition can be achieved fairly quickly and transition extremely well into the late game (muta/ling/bane as early as early/mid game into the ultra and greater spire tech in the late game that utilizes exactly the same set of upgrades)  

How it Works:

  • 16 full drone followed by hatchery 
  • Spawning pool and then gas 
  • Ling speed once enough gas 
  • Queens as hatcheries come online 
  • The third hatchery and then roach warren 
  • Roach/ling for the early defense/push  
  • Lair and then roach speed 
  • Spire and evo chambers 
  • Mutas and ling productions with upgrades for each when enough money 
  • Bane nest and speed upgrade 
  • Continuous muta/ling/bane production while hitting multiple locations 
  • Continuous upgrades and macro (creeps, expand)

#1. Mass Roach/Ravager V. Terran 

[ENG] 2021 GSL S1 Finals Rogue vs Maru (Start at: 53:40)

This old famous build has made a flashy come back at the recent big SC2 stage winning Rogue yet another GSL title where he beat none other than Maru in the finals. By producing a mass roach based army very quickly and simply crushing Terran over and over until it’s dead, there is no build more Zerg-like than this one. This build utilizes a solid macro earlier in the game allowing Zerg to build a cheap yet enormous and sturdy army that seems to be too much for Terran to handle. If you want to smother Terran in the true Zerg style swarm fashion, this build is a great one to learn to crush your Terran opponents on the ladders.       

What is Great about This Build: 

  • The build starts with a solid macro and good economy that will support continuous mass army production allowing continuous pressure to be put on Terran throughout the game 
  • Roaches are extremely cheap yet durable units-with decent economy backing the army production, maintaining max army supply is not difficult
  • The build is very straightforward and easy to execute and follow through- simply continue to produce well upgraded roaches (simple unit compositions that puts very little strain on planning) and pressure Terran while keeping the macro engine going back at home  

How it Works:

  • Hatchery first followed by full 16 drone 
  • Gas and then spawning pool 
  • Queens for each hatchery and whenever possible for creep spreads and injects 
  • The third hatchery and then ling speed upgrade 
  • 2 evo chambers for ranged attack and armor upgrade for roaches 
  • Lair and then roach warrens 
  • Roach speed and +1 attack/armor upgrade for roaches 
  • The fourth hatchery and mass roach/ling/ravager productions 
  • Nonstop pressure with mass roach based army with continued unit productions and upgrades as allowed  

SC2, Zerg swarm 

There are many great builds that capitalize on the nature of the Zerg race- an endless swarm that will swallow everything. I have been seeing a lot of these builds on the ladders recently being utilized well to crush the other races. Join your fellow Zergs on the ladders to dominate the game with overwhelming swarms.  

Also be sure to read:


Every Zerg Unit Explained – Starcraft 2 Lower League Lessons


Every Terran Unit Explained www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpRYojWb7Qw
Every Protoss Unit Explained
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Every Zerg Unit Explained - Starcraft 2 Lower League Lessons

Zerg Building – Starcraft 2 – Tạo ra Army mới ngay lập tức


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Let’s Learn Starcraft #7: Intro to Zerg Units


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Let's Learn Starcraft #7: Intro to Zerg Units

StarCraft: Brood War – 1 Zerg vs 7 Zerg (vs 7 computers ) Map: Big Game Hunters


StarCraft: Brood War is the expansion pack for the military science fiction realtime strategy video game StarCraft. Released in December 1998 for Microsoft Windows and June 1999 for Mac OS, it was codeveloped by Saffire Corporation and Blizzard Entertainment. The expansion pack introduces new campaigns, map tilesets, music, extra units for each race, and upgrade advancements. The campaigns continue the story from where the original StarCraft ended, with the sequel, StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty, continuing from the conclusion of Brood War. The expansion was released first in the United States on December 18, 1998.
Brood War was critically well received, with reviewers praising it for being developed with the care of a full game rather than as an uninspired extra As of May 31, 2007, StarCraft and Brood War have sold almost ten million copies combined.The game is especially popular in South Korea, where professional players and teams have participated in matches, earned sponsorships, and competed in televised matches.
As of April 19, 2017, StarCraft and its Brood War expansion, aka the Anthology, are free to download and play from Blizzard’s website.A remastered edition of StarCraft and its expansion was released on August 14, 2017.
Developer(s) Saffire Corporation , Blizzard Entertainment
Publisher(s) Blizzard Entertainment
Series StarCraft
Platform(s) Microsoft Windows, Mac OS
Release: Microsoft Windows NA: December 18, 1998 , PAL: March 1999
macOS NA: June 30, 1999
Genre(s) Realtime strategy
Mode(s) Singleplayer, multiplayer

StarCraft: Brood War - 1 Zerg vs 7 Zerg (vs 7 computers ) Map: Big Game Hunters

StarCraft Brood War – Zerg vs 7 Random Computer – Map: Big Game Hunters (Walkthrough)


StarCraft Brood War Zerg vs 7 Random Computer Map: Big Game Hunters (Walkthrough)
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StarCraft Brood War - Zerg vs 7 Random Computer - Map: Big Game Hunters (Walkthrough)

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