[Update] Warp Gates vs Gateways | warp gate – Vietnamnhanvan

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Psyonic_Reaver

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Last Edited: 2015-11-16 22:01:56

#1

I’ve always wondered, since WOL, if going pure Warp Gates is the most efficient means of macroing for Protoss in the mid to late game. I never really voiced the question due to the game still in it’s early stages and it was just generally accepted that Warp Gates were superior. Now that we’ve entered the LOTV era, I’ve been curious to finally hear a response.

My question is – Is it really that much more efficient to warp in Warp Gate units versus Gateway units?

For the sake of simplicity, let’s say that the Protoss is of Master level and let’s say this player has the uncanny ability of being able to warp in units EXACTLY when the cool-down ends on his Warp Gates.

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I’ve provided a graphic that shows the build times (in seconds) of Gateway units vs the warping cool-down times (in seconds) of Warp Gate units.

Now, just looking at the times, excluding the 4 second/11 second warp in delays. The benefits of Warp Gates are obvious, units could be “trained” faster. Not to mention you can just about place these units ANYWHERE there is power to do so.

Initial units are warped in at 4 seconds. Nothing can beat that initial production time but after that, depending on the unit, Warp Gates need a 20-30 second cool-down time. Anytime a Protoss player is not warping in units when that cool-down ends, it is considered wasted time.

Now in the early game, a player is usually VERY efficient with his minerals and staying on top of the warp in time which makes Warp Gates very efficient, but MANY players, even Pros! Slip heading into mid to late game, especially when battles are being fought but I’m getting off topic.

So let us include the 4 second warp in delay which is ONLY available when a unit is warped inside a pylon connected to a Nexus/Gateway.

In reality, a Zealot will take 24 seconds, instead of 20, to be combat ready when warped in next to a Nexus/Gateway. That’s only 3 seconds faster than a standard Gateway Zealot. Now when it comes to rushing or a critical base defense, 3 seconds is life or death.

The Sentry is combat ready in 27 seconds. One second slower than a Gateway Sentry. So there really is no benefit if you warp in the Sentry right next to the Gateway.

So go ahead and add + 4 seconds to every unit. In general, with exception of the Sentry, all units will “train” roughly 3 seconds faster in a Warp Gate.

Don’t even get me started on the training times if you’re warping in a unit OUTSIDE a Nexus/Gateway pylon. Add +11 seconds. (31 seconds to build a Zealot! 43 seconds for a HT or DT!!!)

Again, this is ASSUMING the Master Protoss player we’re using as an example is ALWAYS warping in as SOON as the cool-down comes off his Warp Gates. This player is so good he knows he needs to click back to his base or powered area of choice about every 20-30 seconds to deploy units.

So what about the player that is NOT warping in his units as soon as the cool-down is done? Well, just like any player that struggles to macro, you won’t have any combat units ready for the next battle.

So the question – Is it really that much more efficient to warp in Warp Gate units versus Gateway units?

Let’s throw a twist in the mix.

Let’s say a Master Protoss and a Master Terran are about to engage in an epic battle. The Protoss player just finished using his Warp Gates, he’s at his max supply cap. He can not queue up any units in the Warp Gates therefore, he must be ready to warp in units as soon as supply is freed up. The Protoss player heads into battle.

A Terran player usually just queues up more units in his facilities before heading into battle, normally not taking his eyes off his army. (Thanks hotkeys!) Uh oh. The Terran Player has hit his supply cap. He technically can not “train” more units but they are still queuing up in his Barracks/Factories/Starports. These units will start building as soon as supply is freed up. The Terran Player heads into battle.

The battle is fierce. Units are micro’d. Storms cast. Stim used. Marines dancing/stutter stepping to outpace zealots. Stalkers trying to blink forward. Disrupter shots trying to be placed to maximize damage. Etc.

The Protoss Player realizes that the battle will be close, he needs to have an army ready back at home. How is this accomplished? The player has to flick his screen to a pylon connected to a Nexus/Gateway and manually warp in EACH unit available. (Let’s say this player has… 25 Warp Gates) Let’s say it takes about 2-4 seconds for the Protoss Player to empty his Warp Gates and to have units warping in. Then the player flicks back to the battle. Uh oh. Where are the Disrupters? How did they get killed? Man he sure lost more units then he thought he would during the 2-4 seconds he was off warping in units.

The Terran Player has been microing his units the entire time, his screen never left the battle. Maybe once or twice he spammed his Barracks hotkey and spammed MMMM but he was able to quickly bring his mouse back up in time to micro a Raven into position to Hunter Seeker a group of Disrupters before they could fire another again. The Terran does not have to flick back to his base to create units. In fact, during that whole battle he was having units being produced (Because they were already queued!!!) and has another army ready to go.

Does Protoss have the same luxury to flick away during a battle to warp in units? Even then it’s only 25 units IF you have the minerals saved up. Then you have to wait another 20-30 seconds before using your Warp Gates again. Terran has NO cool-down between unit creation.

Even if you’re at 200 supply, you can STILL queue up units in the gateway to start producing as soon as a unit is lost. Warp gates have no advantage in that regard. If you’re in the middle of a giant 200/200 army battle, chances are you’re not looking away from that battle to spam units until after you’ve won or lost. The Terran can just have the barracks all queue’d up and ready to go to produce units as they are lost. That requires no managing.

In conclusion, it seems that it would be more ideal to have mostly Gateways with units queue’d up and ready to be built during an engagement with a small group of Warp Gates would still be ideal for rapid defense to a location or for Warp Prism attacks.

I started out asking this question in the Simple Questions/Simple Answers thread but it started developing beyond the guidelines provided for that thread.I’ve always wondered, since WOL, if going pure Warp Gates is the most efficient means of macroing for Protoss in the mid to late game. I never really voiced the question due to the game still in it’s early stages and it was just generally accepted that Warp Gates were superior. Now that we’ve entered the LOTV era, I’ve been curious to finally hear a response.My question is – Is it really that much more efficient to warp in Warp Gate units versus Gateway units?For the sake of simplicity, let’s say that the Protoss is of Master level and let’s say this player has the uncanny ability of being able to warp in units EXACTLY when the cool-down ends on his Warp Gates.I’ve provided a graphic that shows the build times (in seconds) of Gateway units vs the warping cool-down times (in seconds) of Warp Gate units.Now, just looking at the times, excluding the 4 second/11 second warp in delays. The benefits of Warp Gates are obvious, units could be “trained” faster. Not to mention you can just about place these units ANYWHERE there is power to do so.Initial units are warped in at 4 seconds. Nothing can beat that initial production time but after that, depending on the unit, Warp Gates need a 20-30 second cool-down time. Anytime a Protoss player is not warping in units when that cool-down ends, it is considered wasted time.Now in the early game, a player is usually VERY efficient with his minerals and staying on top of the warp in time which makes Warp Gates very efficient, but MANY players, even Pros! Slip heading into mid to late game, especially when battles are being fought but I’m getting off topic.So let us include the 4 second warp in delay which is ONLY available when a unit is warped inside a pylon connected to a Nexus/Gateway.In reality, a Zealot will take 24 seconds, instead of 20, to be combat ready when warped in next to a Nexus/Gateway. That’s only 3 seconds faster than a standard Gateway Zealot. Now when it comes to rushing or a critical base defense, 3 seconds is life or death.The Sentry is combat ready in 27 seconds. One second slower than a Gateway Sentry. So there really is no benefit if you warp in the Sentry right next to the Gateway.So go ahead and add + 4 seconds to every unit. In general, with exception of the Sentry, all units will “train” roughly 3 seconds faster in a Warp Gate.Don’t even get me started on the training times if you’re warping in a unit OUTSIDE a Nexus/Gateway pylon. Add +11 seconds. (31 seconds to build a Zealot! 43 seconds for a HT or DT!!!)Again, this is ASSUMING the Master Protoss player we’re using as an example is ALWAYS warping in as SOON as the cool-down comes off his Warp Gates. This player is so good he knows he needs to click back to his base or powered area of choice about every 20-30 seconds to deploy units.So what about the player that is NOT warping in his units as soon as the cool-down is done? Well, just like any player that struggles to macro, you won’t have any combat units ready for the next battle.So the question – Is it really that much more efficient to warp in Warp Gate units versus Gateway units?Let’s throw a twist in the mix.Let’s say a Master Protoss and a Master Terran are about to engage in an epic battle. The Protoss player just finished using his Warp Gates, he’s at his max supply cap. He can not queue up any units in the Warp Gates therefore, he must be ready to warp in units as soon as supply is freed up. The Protoss player heads into battle.A Terran player usually just queues up more units in his facilities before heading into battle, normally not taking his eyes off his army. (Thanks hotkeys!) Uh oh. The Terran Player has hit his supply cap. He technically can not “train” more units but they are still queuing up in his Barracks/Factories/Starports. These units will start building as soon as supply is freed up. The Terran Player heads into battle.The battle is fierce. Units are micro’d. Storms cast. Stim used. Marines dancing/stutter stepping to outpace zealots. Stalkers trying to blink forward. Disrupter shots trying to be placed to maximize damage. Etc.The Protoss Player realizes that the battle will be close, he needs to have an army ready back at home. How is this accomplished? The player has to flick his screen to a pylon connected to a Nexus/Gateway and manually warp in EACH unit available. (Let’s say this player has… 25 Warp Gates) Let’s say it takes about 2-4 seconds for the Protoss Player to empty his Warp Gates and to have units warping in. Then the player flicks back to the battle. Uh oh. Where are the Disrupters? How did they get killed? Man he sure lost more units then he thought he would during the 2-4 seconds he was off warping in units.The Terran Player has been microing his units the entire time, his screen never left the battle. Maybe once or twice he spammed his Barracks hotkey and spammed MMMM but he was able to quickly bring his mouse back up in time to micro a Raven into position to Hunter Seeker a group of Disrupters before they could fire another again. The Terran does not have to flick back to his base to create units. In fact, during that whole battle he was having units being produced (Because they were already queued!!!) and has another army ready to go.Does Protoss have the same luxury to flick away during a battle to warp in units? Even then it’s only 25 units IF you have the minerals saved up. Then you have to wait another 20-30 seconds before using your Warp Gates again. Terran has NO cool-down between unit creation.Even if you’re at 200 supply, you can STILL queue up units in the gateway to start producing as soon as a unit is lost. Warp gates have no advantage in that regard. If you’re in the middle of a giant 200/200 army battle, chances are you’re not looking away from that battle to spam units until after you’ve won or lost. The Terran can just have the barracks all queue’d up and ready to go to produce units as they are lost. That requires no managing.In conclusion, it seems that it would be more ideal to have mostly Gateways with units queue’d up and ready to be built during an engagement with a small group of Warp Gates would still be ideal for rapid defense to a location or for Warp Prism attacks.

So wait? I’m bad? =(

FreeZEternal

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#2

At 200, if you queue up, you won’t get those units instantly like the warp gate. I think that to itself would be HUGE.

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flipstar

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#3

I can see what you’re going for and it’s not completely out of line, but even if the time was 100% equal the fact that you can warp in and get them instantly into action trumps it extremely hard. The buildtime is just the icing on the cake.

Psyonic_Reaver

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Last Edited: 2015-11-16 21:59:56

#4

On November 17 2015 06:46 FreeZEternal wrote:
At 200, if you queue up, you won’t get those units instantly like the warp gate. I think that to itself would be HUGE.

But with only a 3 second difference, is it really that HUGE? The odds are, as one’s units are dying, one will not be able to get into one’s base to warp in units to make up that difference because one would ideally be microing the rest of one’s army until that battle is won or lost. And just HOW many Warp Gates are available? How many Warp Gates do Protoss have by a 200/200 end game? 25? 30? So that means you replace 25 units instantly in one go yes but a Terran player is having units constantly being replaced.

It all comes down to player skill and macro skill. I would say in general, MOST players do not have the skill to be constantly spamming the warp gate units in an effective manner.

I mean think about it. If I was in my base warping in units and I had 2-3 Disrupters that were just sitting, not being micro’d, then those units are useless. At least Reavers would continue to fire. Or what about storming with HT? Or blinking Stalkers?

If I knew my units were being built back at home because I had my Gateways all queued up, then I would not have to stop microing my units engaged in battle to go warp in units.

But with only a 3 second difference, is it really that HUGE? The odds are, as one’s units are dying, one will not be able to get into one’s base to warp in units to make up that difference because one would ideally be microing the rest of one’s army until that battle is won or lost. And just HOW many Warp Gates are available? How many Warp Gates do Protoss have by a 200/200 end game? 25? 30? So that means you replace 25 units instantly in one go yes but a Terran player is having units constantly being replaced.It all comes down to player skill and macro skill. I would say in general, MOST players do not have the skill to be constantly spamming the warp gate units in an effective manner.I mean think about it. If I was in my base warping in units and I had 2-3 Disrupters that were just sitting, not being micro’d, then those units are useless. At least Reavers would continue to fire. Or what about storming with HT? Or blinking Stalkers?If I knew my units were being built back at home because I had my Gateways all queued up, then I would not have to stop microing my units engaged in battle to go warp in units.

So wait? I’m bad? =(

KingAlphard

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Last Edited: 2015-11-17 00:35:43

#5

Not gonna happen. Warpgate has too many huge advantages.
You compare building times but you also need to consider that gateway units spawn outside of the gateway and you almost never need the units there immediately, so it takes like 10~30 more seconds for them to become effective.
Also, another important thing to consider is that while gateways get your resources stuck in the production tab for 30-40 seconds, warpgate only requires you to spend them when you warp the units in (4-11 seconds before they enter the battlefield).
I’m estimating they would need like twice the cooldowns for people to use gateways instead of warpgates outside of the early game.

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PinheadXXXXXX

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#6

The problem with your conclusions are that you assume Protoss macros like a terran, constantly building units every production cycle. Instead, most protosses will sometimes opt to not build units for a while to afford tech or upgrades or more gateways. Warp gates are better for this style of play because then when you need gateway units after not hitting your warpins for a while, you get them immediately.

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Psyonic_Reaver

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#7

It might be the Brood War Protoss in me I guess. Terran and Protoss were the same style of macro in BW.

So wait? I’m bad? =(

Dumbledore

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#8

On November 17 2015 06:57 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:
Show nested quote +

On November 17 2015 06:46 FreeZEternal wrote:
At 200, if you queue up, you won’t get those units instantly like the warp gate. I think that to itself would be HUGE.

But with only a 3 second difference, is it really that HUGE? The odds are, as one’s units are dying, one will not be able to get into one’s base to warp in units to make up that difference because one would ideally be microing the rest of one’s army until that battle is won or lost. And just HOW many Warp Gates are available? How many Warp Gates do Protoss have by a 200/200 end game? 25? 30? So that means you replace 25 units instantly in one go yes but a Terran player is having units constantly being replaced.

It all comes down to player skill and macro skill. I would say in general, MOST players do not have the skill to be constantly spamming the warp gate units in an effective manner.

I mean think about it. If I was in my base warping in units and I had 2-3 Disrupters that were just sitting, not being micro’d, then those units are useless. At least Reavers would continue to fire. Or what about storming with HT? Or blinking Stalkers?

If I knew my units were being built back at home because I had my Gateways all queued up, then I would not have to stop microing my units engaged in battle to go warp in units.

But with only a 3 second difference, is it really that HUGE? The odds are, as one’s units are dying, one will not be able to get into one’s base to warp in units to make up that difference because one would ideally be microing the rest of one’s army until that battle is won or lost. And just HOW many Warp Gates are available? How many Warp Gates do Protoss have by a 200/200 end game? 25? 30? So that means you replace 25 units instantly in one go yes but a Terran player is having units constantly being replaced.It all comes down to player skill and macro skill. I would say in general, MOST players do not have the skill to be constantly spamming the warp gate units in an effective manner.I mean think about it. If I was in my base warping in units and I had 2-3 Disrupters that were just sitting, not being micro’d, then those units are useless. At least Reavers would continue to fire. Or what about storming with HT? Or blinking Stalkers?If I knew my units were being built back at home because I had my Gateways all queued up, then I would not have to stop microing my units engaged in battle to go warp in units.

Read his argument again..

Read his argument again..

Have a nice day 😉

Ordained

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#9

The flaw I see is that you cannot count the 24 second recharge since it is backloaded. Assuming equal supply is queued with the Terran, Protoss’ units will be out exponentially faster.

If you warp in from a proxy pylon, then yes, this is a disadvantage.

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SigmaoctanusIV

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#10

I like where you are going with this, if Warp prism didn’t also have the same cooldown as being next to a nexus/gateway, Protoss just needs to keep a couple warp prisms around to almost instantly warp in his army after losing so much. I do hate having to actually look away to warp in units. Maybe if blizzard made the times a little bit more favored for Gateways there could actually be variety in play styles.

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Elentos

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Last Edited: 2015-11-17 10:44:23

#11

On November 17 2015 06:57 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:
Show nested quote +

On November 17 2015 06:46 FreeZEternal wrote:
At 200, if you queue up, you won’t get those units instantly like the warp gate. I think that to itself would be HUGE.

But with only a 3 second difference, is it really that HUGE? The odds are, as one’s units are dying, one will not be able to get into one’s base to warp in units to make up that difference because one would ideally be microing the rest of one’s army until that battle is won or lost. And just HOW many Warp Gates are available? How many Warp Gates do Protoss have by a 200/200 end game? 25? 30? So that means you replace 25 units instantly in one go yes but a Terran player is having units constantly being replaced.

But with only a 3 second difference, is it really that HUGE? The odds are, as one’s units are dying, one will not be able to get into one’s base to warp in units to make up that difference because one would ideally be microing the rest of one’s army until that battle is won or lost. And just HOW many Warp Gates are available? How many Warp Gates do Protoss have by a 200/200 end game? 25? 30? So that means you replace 25 units instantly in one go yes but a Terran player is having units constantly being replaced.

There’s a huge difference between having those units instantly and having those units in 30 seconds. Namely that one is in time to defend the attack and the other gets killed off by units camping production. Or say you win the fight and want to push in, do you want to give your opponent an extra 30 seconds to get ready?

Getting on top of the Terran production is considered a checkmate move. Everything coming out of their production is killed as soon as it pops, even if the buildings don’t die. Protoss doesn’t have that problem because of warpgates. It’s a huge deal.

Also you can’t actually queue up new stuff when you’re already 200/200.

There’s a huge difference between having those units instantly and having those units in 30 seconds. Namely that one is in time to defend the attack and the other gets killed off by units camping production. Or say you win the fight and want to push in, do you want to give your opponent an extra 30 seconds to get ready?Getting on top of the Terran production is considered a checkmate move. Everything coming out of their production is killed as soon as it pops, even if the buildings don’t die. Protoss doesn’t have that problem because of warpgates. It’s a huge deal.Also you can’t actually queue up new stuff when you’re already 200/200.

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EngrishTeacher

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Last Edited: 2015-11-17 10:47:58

#12

On November 17 2015 19:43 Elentos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 17 2015 06:57 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:

On November 17 2015 06:46 FreeZEternal wrote:
At 200, if you queue up, you won’t get those units instantly like the warp gate. I think that to itself would be HUGE.

But with only a 3 second difference, is it really that HUGE? The odds are, as one’s units are dying, one will not be able to get into one’s base to warp in units to make up that difference because one would ideally be microing the rest of one’s army until that battle is won or lost. And just HOW many Warp Gates are available? How many Warp Gates do Protoss have by a 200/200 end game? 25? 30? So that means you replace 25 units instantly in one go yes but a Terran player is having units constantly being replaced.

But with only a 3 second difference, is it really that HUGE? The odds are, as one’s units are dying, one will not be able to get into one’s base to warp in units to make up that difference because one would ideally be microing the rest of one’s army until that battle is won or lost. And just HOW many Warp Gates are available? How many Warp Gates do Protoss have by a 200/200 end game? 25? 30? So that means you replace 25 units instantly in one go yes but a Terran player is having units constantly being replaced.

There’s a huge difference between having those units instantly and having those units in 30 seconds. Namely that one is in time to defend the attack and the other gets killed off by units camping production. Or say you win the fight and want to push in, do you want to give your opponent an extra 30 seconds to get ready?

Getting on top of the Terran production is considered a checkmate move. Everything coming out of their production is killed as soon as it pops, even if the buildings don’t die. Protoss doesn’t have that problem because of warpgates. It’s a huge deal.

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Also you can’t actually queue up new stuff when you’re already 200/200.

There’s a huge difference between having those units instantly and having those units in 30 seconds. Namely that one is in time to defend the attack and the other gets killed off by units camping production. Or say you win the fight and want to push in, do you want to give your opponent an extra 30 seconds to get ready?Getting on top of the Terran production is considered a checkmate move. Everything coming out of their production is killed as soon as it pops, even if the buildings don’t die. Protoss doesn’t have that problem because of warpgates. It’s a huge deal.

But you can “overqueue” units before you just max out. I don’t see a use for it in pvt or pvz though, that extra reinforcement (zealots) are needed to continuously tank for your high powered units. However, in PvP I can see it having some use during deathball fights, where you can pull back your tempests/disruptors before all your tanking units die off, and regroup with with the gateway units you made back home during the fight then transform back into warpgates.

Very niche use though, 99% of the time warpgate is just better.

But you can “overqueue” units before you just max out. I don’t see a use for it in pvt or pvz though, that extra reinforcement (zealots) are needed to continuously tank for your high powered units. However, in PvP I can see it having some use during deathball fights, where you can pull back your tempests/disruptors before all your tanking units die off, and regroup with with the gateway units you made back home during the fight then transform back into warpgates.Very niche use though, 99% of the time warpgate is just better.

Elentos

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#13

On November 17 2015 19:45 EngrishTeacher wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 17 2015 19:43 Elentos wrote:
On November 17 2015 06:57 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:

On November 17 2015 06:46 FreeZEternal wrote:
At 200, if you queue up, you won’t get those units instantly like the warp gate. I think that to itself would be HUGE.

But with only a 3 second difference, is it really that HUGE? The odds are, as one’s units are dying, one will not be able to get into one’s base to warp in units to make up that difference because one would ideally be microing the rest of one’s army until that battle is won or lost. And just HOW many Warp Gates are available? How many Warp Gates do Protoss have by a 200/200 end game? 25? 30? So that means you replace 25 units instantly in one go yes but a Terran player is having units constantly being replaced.

But with only a 3 second difference, is it really that HUGE? The odds are, as one’s units are dying, one will not be able to get into one’s base to warp in units to make up that difference because one would ideally be microing the rest of one’s army until that battle is won or lost. And just HOW many Warp Gates are available? How many Warp Gates do Protoss have by a 200/200 end game? 25? 30? So that means you replace 25 units instantly in one go yes but a Terran player is having units constantly being replaced.

There’s a huge difference between having those units instantly and having those units in 30 seconds. Namely that one is in time to defend the attack and the other gets killed off by units camping production. Or say you win the fight and want to push in, do you want to give your opponent an extra 30 seconds to get ready?

Getting on top of the Terran production is considered a checkmate move. Everything coming out of their production is killed as soon as it pops, even if the buildings don’t die. Protoss doesn’t have that problem because of warpgates. It’s a huge deal.

Also you can’t actually queue up new stuff when you’re already 200/200.

There’s a huge difference between having those units instantly and having those units in 30 seconds. Namely that one is in time to defend the attack and the other gets killed off by units camping production. Or say you win the fight and want to push in, do you want to give your opponent an extra 30 seconds to get ready?Getting on top of the Terran production is considered a checkmate move. Everything coming out of their production is killed as soon as it pops, even if the buildings don’t die. Protoss doesn’t have that problem because of warpgates. It’s a huge deal.

But you can “overqueue” units before you just max out. I don’t see a use for it in pvt or pvz though, that extra reinforcement (zealots) are needed to continuously tank for your high powered units. However, in PvP I can see it having some use during deathball fights, where you can pull back your tempests/disruptors before all your tanking units die off, and regroup with with the gateway units you made back home during the fight then transform back into warpgates.

Very niche use though, 99% of the time warpgate is just better.

But you can “overqueue” units before you just max out. I don’t see a use for it in pvt or pvz though, that extra reinforcement (zealots) are needed to continuously tank for your high powered units. However, in PvP I can see it having some use during deathball fights, where you can pull back your tempests/disruptors before all your tanking units die off, and regroup with with the gateway units you made back home during the fight then transform back into warpgates.Very niche use though, 99% of the time warpgate is just better.

Isn’t it more likely that your retreat gets cut off by warped-in reinforcements?

Isn’t it more likely that your retreat gets cut off by warped-in reinforcements?

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brickrd

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Last Edited: 2015-11-17 11:40:37

#14

i would grant that with lotv warpin changes there is more of a glimmer of a discussion to be had about this, but i still think it’s definitively better to use warpgates if you play at any semblance of a high level. like i said in the lotv forum and like the first reply says here, being able to warp in units immediately is just too valuable, especially since protoss relies so much on having a meat shield for their aoe units, and also for high templar or other energy units which need to build up energy over time

even with the warpin nerf you can still use warp prisms to reinforce nearby, so i think one of the big factors is that if you’re protoss and you’re looking to win a big direct fight you will need to have your full production cycle available to you to warp in at the prism so your entire army doesn’t get overrun and so you’re better equipped to keep up in a back and forth fight. this especially applies if you’re in a situation where your economy has taken a hit and you’re semi “all-in”

if you play at a level where your macro isn’t good then there could be some theoretical benefit to this, i suppose, but it would be learning the game in a very awkward way that doesn’t lend itself to improvement – kind of like making 5 macro hatcheries instead of queens and injects if you play zerg. at high levels you’re not going to have thousands of minerals sitting around to have backup gateways on top of a full cycle’s worth of warpgates, ESPECIALLY in lotv with bases mining out faster

keep in mind also that especially earlier in the game (before 200ish supply) if you’re using regular gateways you’re making a more distant mineral investment when you first build them, and the earlier you spend your minerals to get a later benefit the more opportunity cost you’re losing

darthrado

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Joined May 2011

Bulgaria

10 Posts

Last Edited: 2015-11-17 15:06:29

#15

The greatest benefit of the warp gates is and forever has been the ability to warp in units instantly, wherever they are needed. During or after a skirmish you can instantly reinforce with the units you need (which you would otherwise have to predict that you need, enqueue them , wait for their build time and then wait for their travel time to your current position)

That advantage is way too big to be traded for possibly faster overall build time thanks the unit queuing.
With the change in LotV the biggest change to this playstyle was that Protoss players would bring warp prism with them instead of a probe. If the warp prism ability was removed then we could possibly see a mix of gateways/warp gates, but as things stand now, Warp Gate still holds the advantage over traditional Gateways.

DinoMight

Profile
Blog

Joined June 2012

United States

3331 Posts

#16

In a maxed situation Warpgate > Gateway because you have 20+ seconds to warp in units before queuing them up would have been faster. Good players will be ready to warp in as soon as units start dying.

I usually have a Warp Prism hanging around my opponent’s main in max vs max situations just to immediately jump on his production as soon as I start losing units.

“Wtf I come back and find myself in camp DinoMight all of a sudden, feels weird man.” -Wombat_NI

dr3am_b3ing

Profile

Joined May 2015

Canada

188 Posts

#17

User was warned for this post

Can we all just agree that protoss is now a joke in LotV

Potassium Gang

Dracover

Profile

Joined October 2010

Australia

176 Posts

#18

I think for a top tier player warpgates is definitely better. I think they can take advantage of the 3 seconds. For me I will definitely try this out.

I’m a diamond level toss and in some respect I get where you’re coming from. When I get into a big fight the reality is after casting forcefields, guardian shield, micro the position of your units, send disruptor volleys, activate phoniex or voidrays, use mothership core abilities, blink micro your stalkers. By the time you get to do a warp in round….for a dimond player it’s painful.

Don’t stop

Please or register to reply.

[NEW] Plastic Injection Molding Troubleshooting Warpage And Cost Savings | warp gate – Vietnamnhanvan

Plastic Injection Molding Troubleshooting Warpage Improves Production Performance

In plastic injection molding troubleshooting, warpage is one of the most common quality issues.

So what is warpage?

Warpage is excessive change of shape of the part after it has been ejected from the injection mould. Also known as deformation, a warped part will twist or bend due to internal stresses in the part caused by uneven shrinkage rates or by some mechanically applied forced such as during the ejection phase. 

Eliminating part warp can have huge cost savings and should be part of a lean manufacturing program.

But how to fix warp?

The root causes of warp can be grouped into 5 different areas:

   1. Incorrect processing parameters

   2. Mould issue

   3. Injection moulding machine issue

   4. Part design issue

   5. Poor plastic material selection

Isolating which area is causing the warp can be quite difficult so it must be done in a step by step procedure eliminating each possible cause one at a time.

When doing plastic injection molding troubleshooting, keep an open mind because the cause might be different to what you think it is.

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1. Incorrect Processing Parameters

When using this plastic injection molding troubleshooting guide below change one processing parameter at a time by a small amount (say 5%) until you get a result.

Low Injection Rate

Explanation: Injecting with a lower rate will leave higher residual stresses in the moulded part. A lower injection rate causes a lower viscosity in the material which requires higher injection pressure to push the material into the mould cavity. A short shot might also result.

Action: Increase the injection rate by increasing the injection speed. Take note of the fill time parameter before and after increasing the injection speed. If it doesn’t reduce then increase the injection pressure until the fill time reduces to the target time & part warp is eliminated.

High Injection Rate

Explanation: A high injection rate can result in a high shear rate of the material at the gate. If the shear rate is too high it will add to the internal stress in the part causing it to warp.

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Action: Reduce injection rate. 

Short Hold Time

Explanation: Short hold times don’t allow the machine to compensate for the natural shrinkage that occurs as the part cools in the mould cavity. The machine needs to apply hold pressure to the part after first stage fill to compensate for most of the shrinkage. 

Action: Increase hold time.

Short Cooling Time

Explanation: Short cooling times don’t allow sufficient heat to be extracted from the part while it is still held in the mould cavity. A part that is ejected hot is more likely to warp than a part that is ejected cold.

Action: Increase cooling time but also consider reducing barrel temperatures or screw back pressure during the plastizing stage.

Low Melt Temperature

Explanation: Low melt temperature will cause higher internal stresses in the part.

Action: Increase barrel temperature or screw back pressure during the plasticizing stage.

2. Mould Issue

When plastic injection molding troubleshooting, the mould is usually the first area to be checked. 

Uneven Cooling

Explanation: Uneven cooling will cause different shrinkage rates within the part. This causes stresses in the part. 

3 common reasons for uneven cooling are: 

   1. Poor mould design: For example: water channels might be spaced too far apart.        

   2. Poor mould setup resulting in low water flow rate: For example: looping too many water circuits externally or having small diameter hoses or fittings connected to the mould will restrict the flow.

   3. Lack of mold maintenance. 

Action: Check the moulding surfaces of the core and cavity for temperature difference. Large differences can be noticed by hand touch  while smaller differences will need the aid of a temperature sensor. When checking make sure it is done immediately after the mould stops cycling. Any delay will give a false reading.  Then modify mould design.

Alternatively, check that the water flow meters have a similar flow rate and measure the difference between the inlet and outlet water temperatures by placing a temperature sensor on each individual water fitting connected to the mould  The temperature difference should be less than 4 degrees Celsius. Also,don’t loop any water circuits; use individual water circuits. This might not fix the problem but it at least eliminates it as a cause.

Also consider descaling (cleaning) cooling channels.

Ejection

Explanation: The ejection stage can warp products for the following reasons:

   1. Poor design of ejector system: If the ejection system doesn’t provide even force to the part then there is a possibility of distortion. For example , having too few ejector pins. 

   2. Sharp corners make the part hold tighter in the mould.

   3. Polish: a high gloss finish will make it more difficult to eject the part especially on side walls with little draft. Also scratches or machining marks that are not in the direction of part ejection will cause the part to stick tighter in the mould.

Action: Radius sharp corners (R0.2mm minimum), repolish if necessary or modify ejector system. 

Wrong Gate Location

Explanation: In most cases, the plastic material should be moving away from the gate at all times inside the mould cavity during the filling stage. If any portion of the flow front starts to move back in the direction of the gate then weld lines or voids due to air entrapment will setup extra stresses in the part.

In other words, the flow front should be as uniform as possible and gate position plays a critical role in this.

Action: Find new gate position. Seek the services of an engineer experienced in both plastic mold flow simulation software and the injection molding process. 

Gate Too Small

Explanation: A small gate size can generate large shear rate in the material as it passes thru the gate. A high shear rate will stress the material resulting in warpage.  

Action: Increase gate size but consider first changing to an easier flow material or trying another moulding machine with better capability. Increasing the gate size will also increase the gate mark on the part which can detract from the appearance.

Poor Mold Making

Explanation: For multi-cavity moulds, if there is a slight difference in the physical size of the steel cavity or core moulding surface dimensions between cavities due to poor machining practices, then this will cause different cavity pressures. 

Action: Measure all cavity and core moulding dimensions.

3. Injection Molding Machine Issue

Poor Injection Response

Explanation: Slow acceleration of the injection screw during the filling stage will increase the internal stresses in the part.

Action: Increase injection pressure or move mould to a better machine.

4. Part Design Issue

Sudden or Large Differences in Wall Thickness

Explanation: Changes in wall thickness creates localised stresses due to different shrinkage rates. This can distort the part.

Action: Redesign part so that wall thickness change is gradual or make wall thickness even across the entire part then modify mould to suit.

Part Too Thin

Explanation #1 : If the wall thickness is very thin then the part will be naturally weak. A weak part can be distorted during ejection from the mould especially during short cycle times.

Explanation #2 :If the wall thickness is very thin compared to the flow length then high injection pressures and speeds are required to fill the mould cavity (this is required in thin wall injection molding). If injection times are too long then high internal stresses will be in the part causing warpage. 

Action: Make wall section thicker or modify mould so that the ejector system is more reliable.

Lack of strengthening Ribs

Explanation: Strengthening ribs improve rigidity of the part when placed in the right areas such as in corners.   

Action: Modify part design so that ribs are included. The wall thickness of the ribs don’t need to be as thick as the rest of the wall section to provide strength. 50%-80% of nominal wall thickness is adequate.

Part Shape

Explanation: Flat rectangular parts will warp more than round tall parts. An example of a flat rectangular part is some kind of lid for food packaging and an example of of a round tall part is a drinking cup.

Did you ever see a warped plastic drinking cup? I havent.

Action: Part designers should keep this fact in mind when designing.

5. Poor Plastic Material Selection

Low MFI Material

Explanation: A low mfi material will leave more internal stress inside the moulded part.

This stress can cause the part to warp. 

Action: Change to a higher mfi material.

Wrong Choice of Material

Explanation: Crystalline materials such as polypropylene, polyethylene, PET & Nylon tend to warp more than amorphous materials such as polycarbonate, polystyrene, SAN and PVC.

Action: #1 Change to an amorphous material however, this is easier said than done because these materials have different shrinkage rates, properties, costs and may require a modified mold design in order to meet the end user part requirements.

Changing the material in most cases is unlikely to be the right solution.

Action: #2 Add fiber reinforcement. Fiber reinforced materials warp less than non-reinforced materials provided the part shape is symmetrical and gate location is correct.

Additional Comments

Plastic injection molding troubleshooting can have a huge affect on cost savings and your production performance.

Although it can be costly to get the root causes of part warp repaired the question you have to ask yourself is:

What is the long term cost of not fixing warpage quality issues?


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«Warp Gate» My Hero Academia •Minecraft PE•


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«Warp Gate» My Hero Academia •Minecraft PE•

22 Câu Đố Sẽ Khiến Einstein Cũng Phải Vò Đầu Bứt Tai


Lần cuối cùng bạn giải câu đố là khi nào? Bạn có cảm thấy bộ não của mình hoạt động với tốc độ kỷ lục khi bạn càng ngày càng giải được nhiều câu đố hơn không? Nâng cao kỹ năng phân tích, tư duy phản biện và trí nhớ của bạn với 22 câu đố mới này nhé. Học cách thấy những chi tiết nhỏ nhất từ cái nhìn đầu tiên!
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22 Câu Đố Sẽ Khiến Einstein Cũng Phải Vò Đầu Bứt Tai

Activating an ALIEN WARP GATE – Subnautica Gameplay Playthrough – Episode 13


Let’s play Subnautica! In this episode, we explore the alien mountain and activate an alien arch warp gate with an ion cube!
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ABOUT THIS GAME
You have crashlanded on alien ocean world, and the only way to go is down. Subnautica’s oceans range from sun drenched shallow coral reefs to treacherous deepsea trenches, lava fields, and bioluminescent underwater rivers. Manage your oxygen supply as you explore kelp forests, plateaus, reefs, and winding cave systems. The water teems with life: Some of it helpful, much of it harmful.
After crash landing in your Life Pod, the clock is ticking to find water, food, and to develop the equipment you need to explore. Collect resources from the ocean around you. Craft knives, lights, diving gear, and personal water craft. Venture deeper and further form to find rarer resources, allowing you to craft more advanced items.
Build bases on the sea floor. Choose layouts and components, and manage hullintegrity as depth and pressure increase. Use your base to store resources, park vehicles, and replenish oxygen supplies as you explore the vast ocean.
What happened to this planet? Signs abound that something is not right. What caused you to crash? What is infecting the sea life? Who built the mysterious structures scattered around the ocean? Can you find a way to make it off the planet alive?
Disrupt the Food Chain
The ocean teems with life: Use the ecosystem to help you. Lure and distract a threatening creature with a fresh fish, or simply swim as fast as you can to avoid gnashing jaws of roaming predators.
Build a Pressure ReActive Waterproof Nanosuit, or PRAWN Suit, and explore extreme depth and heat. Modify the suit with mining drills, torpedo launchers, propulsion cannons, grappling hooks and more.
As the sun goes down, the predators come out. The ocean is unforgiving of those caught unprepared in the darkness. Areas that are safe to explore during the day become treacherous at night, but also reveal a beauty that those who hide from the darkness will never see.
Cave systems wind below the sea bed, from dark claustrophobic passages to caverns lit by bioluminescent life and burninghot lava flows. Explore the world below the ocean floor, but watch your oxygen levels, and take care to avoid the threats lurking in the darkness.
Outro art by Kazzr \u0026 Kong: https://goo.gl/Rx4NZa
Outro track is \”There It Is\” by Kevin Macleod (http://incompetech.com)

Activating an ALIEN WARP GATE - Subnautica Gameplay Playthrough - Episode 13

Làm Món Cơm Cuộn Cầu Vồng Hảo Hạng


Sammy đúng là khó chiều! Cái spinner hoặc món sushi bình thường không đủ cho cậu chàng nữa rồi. Cậu ấy thích thứ gì đó khác biệt cơ! Có lẽ tụi mình nên làm một món sushi độc lạ nhỉ? Ý hay đấy!
Hôm nay chúng ta sẽ làm món cơm cuộn cầu vồng! Ố dè, món này không chỉ ngon mà còn rực rỡ và xinh đẹp nữa! Với món ăn này, chúng mình không cần màu thực phẩm đâu mà chỉ là nước và các nguyên liệu thiên nhiên thôi. Ví dụ nhé, bắp cải tím sẽ làm nước có màu tím này. Chúng mình còn cần củ cải đường, nghệ, tảo lục, hoa đậu biếc và bắp cải tím để tạo màu cho cơm cuộn nữa đấy.
Chúng ta không thể làm cơm cuộn nếu thiếu cơm đâu nha. Tụi mình lại cần gạo hạt ngắn vì độ dính của nó! Chúng ta cũng sẽ thêm dấm gạo để tạo thêm hương vị. Và rồi thêm một xíu đường nữa nhé.
Bước tiếp theo vô cùng thú vị luôn! Chúng ta sẽ cần mành tre cuộn sushi và các miếng rong biển nori khi bắt đầu cuộn cơm đấy. Chúng ta dùng dưa leo, cà rốt, ớt chuông đỏ, xoài, trái bơ làm nhân và dàn nhân lên những dải cơm cầu vòng!
Các cuộn cơm cầu vồng của tụi mình rất là tuyệt luôn! Tụi tớ nghĩ người ta nên tặng Sue một vài ngôi sao Michelin nữa nhé! Mọi người ơi, phải thử ngay sushi cầu vồng nha, đúng là hảo hạng đó!
Theo dõi kênh của Sam và nhấn yêu thích để tạo động lực cho Sam làm tiếp các video phục vụ các bạn nhé!
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Tất cả những tên sản phẩm và tên công ty xuất hiện trong video này là thương hiệu™ hoặc thương hiệu được đăng ký® của những tổ chức tương ứng. Việc sử dụng chúng không đồng nghĩa với việc chúng tôi có liên quan hay chứng thực cho các thương hiệu này.

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Làm Món Cơm Cuộn Cầu Vồng Hảo Hạng

How To Make a T-Rex and Warp Gate Diorama / Polymer Clay / Epoxy resin


I made a Tyrannosaurus and Warp gate Diorama
I hope you guys enjoy!

Tools: Polymer clay, Epoxy Resin, UV Resin
Thanks for watching!
I hope see you next video!

How To Make a T-Rex and Warp Gate Diorama / Polymer Clay / Epoxy resin

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